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Michael Moore [00:00:30] This is Rumble with Michael Moore, and I’m Michael Moore. And if you’re listening to this podcast, you already know that there is a class war being waged by the wealthy and they’ve been winning it for, I’d say, at least the past 40 years and by huge margins. But my friends, what we have learned this week from a new investigative report in ProPublica. If you haven’t heard of ProPublica, you need to sign up to their newsletter. I will have a link on this page for the podcast for both that and for this investigative piece. What we’ve learned from them here in just the last few days is how little and I mean how little as in, if anything, the ultra ultra ultra rich pay in what we call income taxes. ProPublica, they’ve obtained, this is amazing because I don’t know when I’ve ever seen this. They’ve obtained never before seen tax records, the actual tax records, you know, the ones that we waited four or five years for Trump to pony up. 

Michael Moore [00:01:40] They actually got the tax records of Elon Musk, Warren Buffett, Bill Gates, Rupert Murdoch, Mark Zuckerberg, Jeff Bezos, Mike Bloomberg, George Soros, Carl Icahn, the top 25 richest in this country, and others. These are the actual tax records that are not public and were never supposed to be made public. But ProPublica got a hold of them and decided that, yes, people’s privacy is important even for the rich. But when you have two competing issues –privacy of what you earned and paid to the federal government and the public’s right to know who is getting away with paying little or next to nothing, they decided the public’s right to know that was more important. And they paint a picture in this report of how the ruling class in this country easily, and let me point out, legally avoids paying taxes. Joining me to discuss this is Anand Giridharadas, and I think this is maybe your third time on our podcast here. 

Anand Giridharadas [00:02:55] Do I get a hat like a special hat or something? 

Michael Moore [00:02:57] We have to have a prize for that. You might be our first three time return winner, so I’ve…

Anand Giridharadas [00:03:03] I’ve always coveted your hats from a distance. That might be the most appropriate one for us. 

Michael Moore [00:03:09] That is done. One of my personal ball caps will be sent to you. Do you want me to sign it or not? I don’t have to. 

Anand Giridharadas [00:03:16] It’s up to you. You can just sign it with your years of sweat. 

Michael Moore [00:03:20] Yeah. Anand is the author of “Winners Take All: The Elite Charade of Changing the World,” and he has a wonderful newsletter on Substack called The Ink, which you can sign up for at My friends, sign up for this newsletter. It’s such a breath of fresh air to get this from Anand once or twice, or how many times he puts it out each week. Welcome, Anand, to this podcast.

Anand Giridharadas [00:03:46] Always so good to chat with you!

Michael Moore [00:03:48] Well, let’s just jump right into this. This is not a story about tax cheats. This is a story about what they’re doing legally, what the richest Americans do legally to get away with paying little or no taxes. And what I described to our listeners is that ProPublica did this story and they obtained the tax records, which they’re not supposed to have, which we’re supposed to not know about. And yet they’ve done this. Do you want to just address that part first so people aren’t wondering through this whole thing, how the hell did this happen? 

Anand Giridharadas [00:04:22] There is a public interest in understanding why we’re sliding towards a plutocracy, if not already in one. And you know, these people are welcome to go sue or, you know, try their case in court, but they’re not going to scrub this from the internet. We deserve to know, and they’re welcome to go find the leaker if they want to do that. 

Michael Moore [00:04:42] Absolutely right. I’m so glad they did this. Somebody had to have the courage to do something like this. 

Anand Giridharadas [00:04:47] It’s someone with a little bit of cojones. So we got to say that because, like if you just think about a leak, the government does not have some file where it’s like, here’s the tax returns of the 25 richest people. That’s not how the government files are organized, right? Just like, think about that, right? Like that’s from a Forbes list or something, right? So, the fact that they got like, if it is what it seems like, this neat package of exactly the 25 richest people’s files suggests to me, whoever did this was very smart, understood, and if it was someone on the inside and we don’t know that it was, someone who is outraged by what they know and what the rest of us, you know, didn’t have the receipts for, which is that one of the underpinnings of American plutocracy now is not just rich people, quote unquote not paying their fair share, which as Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren might say, but pretty much not paying taxes at all. 

Anand Giridharadas [00:05:52] And it’s at the heart of the finding is this basic miscategorization of money. Most people, the increase in their money every year is called income, which is something you get when you work. And now if you’re very wealthy, you may get a little income. But generally, your increase in money, same resource, same currency, still called money, but your increase in money during a calendar year when you’re a very rich person is called wealth. And we should start by saying that is a fictional distinction. I mean, there’s reasons that we make it. It’s stocks appreciating versus wage labor. But these are all fictions at the end of the day. 

Anand Giridharadas [00:06:40] You and me and everybody listening to this and every billionaire has a certain cumulative bank balance at the beginning of the year on January 1st. And we have a different one at the end. And you and I pay a significant percentage of our increase from January to December in taxes. And according to this thing, rich people pay between 0.1 And maybe a couple of percent here and there on that same thing. And the most remarkable example was Warren Buffett. Number one on the list. You know, grandpa billionaire who paid, I think, .01 percent on the $24 billion gain that he made between 2014 and 2018. 

Michael Moore [00:07:32] Yes. Let me just underscore that. He didn’t pay one percent in income taxes. He paid zero point one percent. I mean, it’s just an amazing thing to see. But let me also just say, repeat something you just said, so that nobody missed it. When we talk about taxes, we’re usually talking about obviously income taxes, and that means our wages are taxed. Many of these billionaires pay them, some of them make a big deal, oh, I only pay myself $1 this year, or they pay themselves very little. But what you’re saying is we need to really be talking about wealth and wealth is if they made their stocks may have gone up a billion dollars this year or their property values went up $2 billion dollars. You know, whatever it is, they’re not taxed on that. But that’s a real thing. And yet we don’t do that. We tax the income. We call it income tax. Do I have that right? 

Anand Giridharadas [00:08:35] Yeah. Well, basically that, you know, if you just think about it logically, like anybody’s need for cash is like limited after a certain period. I mean, if you’re a regular person, you keep most of your money in cash because you need most of your money for the things you’re buying and the rent you have to pay and the health care you have to pay and the food you have to pay. Most of your money ends up going to those things. And so you keep most of your money in cash. You may not have any investments at all. Then you get a little bit richer. You may have, you know, a 401k or a couple of stocks or something like that. Then you get a little richer. You got a lot of stocks. But most of your money is still in cash or in a home or something like that. 

Anand Giridharadas [00:09:13] But if you have, you know, $100 billion dollars. You might keep, I don’t know, a billion dollars in cash, I don’t know how much cash you might need. But the rest of it you’re keeping in these other instruments, like stocks and bonds and, you know, owning whole companies and real estate trusts and all this stuff in the Cayman Islands. And basically what you can do under our system, again, this is a fiction. Our system has decided that the appreciation of those things is not taxable until you sell it. So what do rich people do? They never sell it or they find ways to like, roll it over and they give it away to heirs? And there’s something called the Stepped-up basis, where when they give it away to an heir when they die, the capital gains that happened during their lifetime is erased. 

Anand Giridharadas [00:10:07] The gift value is counted as the value at the time of the death and the transfer. So that lifetime of appreciation, what might be 60 years of appreciation if you bought a stock when you’re 20 and you die at 80, that’s 60 years of appreciation the government actually never gets the capital gains on. It just gets, you know, how it appreciated for your child after you died. And then actually what I think was the most, in a way, new revelation in the piece, which the piece did not emphasize as its newest revelation. But, you know, these are journalistic choices. The thing that actually was new in the piece to me was, answering the following question, which is: if all these people keep all their cash, their money in stocks, not in cash, and they never sell because selling creates taxes. 

Anand Giridharadas [00:10:57] How do they live? Like how do they actually buy the 50 million dollar apartment or how do they actually buy the plane? Or how do you actually live if you’re never selling and therefore never paying taxes? And the answer is this move where you can hold these stocks and other assets that you never sell while accumulating these unrealized gains, they’re going up and up in value. You can go to a bank and take out gigantic loans right in cash. OK, and then the bank says, like it says to you and me. It says, we need some collateral. So it’s like the equivalent of a mortgage where the house is actually owned by the bank. In this case, if you are Mark Zuckerberg or whoever you can say, OK, here’s 50 billion in my Facebook stock as collateral. If I ever default on this loan, right, you can take my, you know, which you may mean sincerely or not, like it’s never going to happen. And if you are willing to essentially give 50 billion of your Facebook stock as collateral, you can borrow billions and billions of dollars to just live on and effectively that becomes your income.

Michael Moore [00:12:10] Where you’re not taxed on it. I mean, it’s a simple, ingenious system to benefit those who are in the point .0001 percent. I mean, this was just stunning to read. I mean, it was not that we didn’t suspect it or know it. I mean, we know, for instance, these corporations have gone a number of years not paying any taxes, these large corporations. And yet the average American, I would have to believe that some average Americans are paying more in income tax or certainly more on a percentage basis, obviously, than the rich. No question, right? 

Anand Giridharadas [00:12:59] I mean, on a percentage basis, think about it this way. So Warren Buffett’s wealth went up $24 billion between 2014 and 2018. OK. $24 billion dollars. He paid one out of a thousand of those dollars in taxes. That’s his effective tax rate. The new money in his keeping over those four or five years is one out of every thousand is this. Imagine a thousand dollars raining on you in singles. Nine hundred and ninety nine goes in your wallet, one goes to the government. That’s his relationship. The United States government in the equivalent period, if the average American enjoyed a similar effective tax rate, your tax bill over that four or five year period would be about, you know, 60, 70, 80 bucks. So ask yourself, would you as a listener to this, would you like a 60 to 70, 80 dollar tax bill over five years. Because that’s what Warren Buffett has. 

Anand Giridharadas [00:14:03] And right now, it’s kind of like a Western where it’s like it’s either you or me, baby, like either he gets that kind of tax rate and then you got to pay more like $60,000 over that four or five years, which is what it is for the average American. Or it’s the other way around. But as I once heard someone say, there’s no up without a down and the taxes you pay in a certain sense and I know we can get into modern monetary theory is actually a more complicated story. But right now with the way we do things, you are subsidizing Warren Buffett’s lifestyle, like let’s be really, really clear about that. He may be nice, he may be kind, he may be from Nebraska. You are subsidizing his lifestyle. Right, like your kids do not have certain toys, certain books, certain help with college because you need to give that money to Warren Buffett to subsidize his lifestyle. Warren Buffett is living off you. You need to understand this incredibly clearly and then act accordingly. 

Michael Moore [00:15:08] I sort of want to just pause for a second to let that settle in because the anger, the legitimate and righteous anger that that should generate from everybody who’s out there, especially during this pandemic, especially essential work people who have had to work every day, working their ass off and still having to pay thousands of dollars in taxes every year, and that’s not just the companies we’ve talked about. Amazon didn’t pay any taxes, and this company didn’t pay any taxes that year and whatever. No, we’re talking about these actual individuals paying nothing or next to nothing. 

Anand Giridharadas [00:15:49] And by the way, I give you Buffett’s example where he actually paid something. There are others in this report. Buffett at least paid more than you listening to this podcast. As a percentage, he just paid a trivial, ridiculous amount. There are others in this system. Bezos in some years who paid zero. So here we’re not talking about percentage terms. We’re talking about you driving a garbage truck, driving an Uber, working in a school cafeteria, working in a library, working in a small brand advertising agency, whatever, all of you paid more taxes in those years than Jeff Bezos did in absolute terms, in dollar terms. 

Michael Moore [00:16:33] Yeah. Not percentage, actual dollars. Those years that he paid zero and you paid $5,000 or $20,000 dollars.

Anand Giridharadas [00:16:43] Like, as you said at the beginning, this is not a story about breaking the law. This is a story about the madness of the law.

Michael Moore [00:16:48] The madness of the law because it’s legal what they’ve done. 

Anand Giridharadas [00:16:51] You know, and people should not take from that this is not a big deal. This is what makes it a much bigger, bigger deal. 

Michael Moore [00:16:57] Yes. Because well, because then it’s on us. We the citizens have to stand up and say, wrong, wrong. This has to change, and the change is, I would think, what Elizabeth Warren and others have discussed which is a wealth tax. Would you explain that to people?

Anand Giridharadas [00:17:17] Basically, if you are only taxing various forms of increase or of, you know, capital gains appreciation after a sale or after a death or estates or you’re getting these little choke points. But you’re never just looking at someone’s total wealth and taking a piece of it, they’ll always be able to game it. I do not, I mean, there’s some things you could do to raise some money around this. There are some loopholes around here that could be closed. You could deal with the Step-up basis thing at death. I mean, there’s some tweaks that could raise significant money. I don’t want to minimize that. But fundamentally, to me, this piece without saying so itself makes a case for a wealth tax that is unimpeachable. 

Anand Giridharadas [00:18:02] At the end of the day, you have to take the view that this piece took, which is looking at people’s total assets. And just saying a certain chunk of that needs to be shaved every year. And we should talk about the Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders tax plan, because I mean, Lord knows they are elected officials and you and I are not. So they are subject to pressures and even they have to win. Even they, you know, have to deal with the reality of politics. I’m not subject to that. Neither are you. So I think we should talk in principle about what that kind of wealth tax should look like and I would suggest both of their wealth taxes are actually grossly inadequate to the problem we face. Both of them, whether it’s at the kind of two or three cents level, even some of their plans after her Medicare for All expansion. He had something closer to 6 to 10 percent. It’s worth noting the only percent that matters here is what is the percent return on investment these people get year to year. 

Anand Giridharadas [00:19:06] Right, and remember, they don’t have the same investments. They don’t have like a Fidelity account. 

Michael Moore [00:19:11] Right.

Anand Giridharadas [00:19:12] They just operate in a different sphere of capitalism, where it’s just a different thing. So their returns are not like your returns, right? Their returns are north of 10 and many…and 20 is like if they’re invested in private equity funds or different things, right? So let’s assume that in at least in good years, non-crisis years, they’re easily racking up double digit returns on investments. What does that mean in practical terms? You got a billion dollars this year. You sit and do nothing and it’s a billion point two next year 

Michael Moore [00:19:49] And the tax on that point increase to a billion dollar is…

Anand Giridharadas [00:19:53] If you don’t sell any of it…

Michael Moore [00:19:56] No, but you’ve actually increased your wealth. 

Anand Giridharadas [00:20:00] By 200 million dollars. That’s your income. Effectively that, yes, because you can borrow against it. 

Michael Moore [00:20:06] You pay nothing on it. 

Anand Giridharadas [00:20:07] Nothing. OK, so the Bernie and Elizabeth wealth taxes to stick with that example. So, let’s say you’d go, let’s say their peak was like 10 percent, which is more than, I think more or at the limit of what either of them has proposed. But let’s just say it’s 10 percent, the maximalist version that we’ve heard in Washington. What would happen under that plan would be, let’s say you go from a billion to one point two billion in a year and they’d take away, let’s say, $120 million of that. So you’d be left with a billion and 80 million, right? Even in the democratic socialist wealth tax plan out there, you’re still $80 million richer the next year than you were the year before. And I think it is time to start talking about the possibility of an erosive wealth tax. 

Michael Moore [00:21:00] Meaning what?

Anand Giridharadas [00:21:02] it would erode your fortune every year, your fortune would be slightly smaller every year. And there’s two reasons for that. One is the reason that Elizabeth and Bernie give for their plans, which is to pay for stuff, right? Which is to like, fund a bunch of things and it’s kind of remarkable what you can actually fund with the money that billionaires keep under their mattress. But the second, which you don’t hear them talking about as much, which I think is an ascendant idea in the culture. Stephanie Kelton talks about this – modern monetary theory – it is an absolute good in and of itself to make those fortunes smaller, even if you put that money in the ocean. And this is really important for folks to understand. It’s not just about raising money to do stuff, although that’s great and would be really awesome that you can raise money to do stuff. Even if you couldn’t, even if you melted the coins and burned the bills, it would be an absolute good to have these people have less money and less power because the amount of wealth and power they have is intrinsically suffocating Democracy. 

Anand Giridharadas [00:22:13] In other words…you can’t have a one person, one vote society functionally, if anyone has that much wealth and power. And I believe that argument, I think that’s right. 

Michael Moore [00:22:24] Yes. 

Anand Giridharadas [00:22:24] And I think it actually, when you then go back to Elizabeth Warren saying people can chip in two cents, that’s great, I think that’s fine. I also understand she’s in a political reality. But it actually makes you realize, like, that’s not ambitious enough, I think relative to the conversation we need to be having, which is that fortunes that big are essentially suffocating a free society. 

Michael Moore [00:22:52] Wow. You know, I think this is such an important topic to talk about, and I know there’s a lot going on in the news this week and Biden’s traveling and all this. But my friends, I want to encourage you to read this ProPublica article and to, you know, there’s a line in the article that points out that that when the Modern Income Tax was passed back in 1913, the newspapers published the names of the wealthiest Americans and what they made and what they paid in tax. That was like, that was a standard thing in the New York Times. It was not an unusual thing. In fact, I think the way to get this to get the tax through at the time was to demand that. 

Michael Moore [00:23:36] And in the early part of the last century, it points out, only, you know, because they wanted to make sure that the rich were paying the bulk of this and that a working person should not suffer. So only 15 percent of Americans actually ended up paying income tax. And, I mean, of the actual taxes that were paid. They were paid by, you know, working Americans. But 80 percent of it. 80 percent when this began, income tax, was paid by the rich. And whether they liked it or not, I think they grew used to it. 

Michael Moore [00:24:05] And when I was born in the 1950s, the Eisenhower tax rate was somewhere, I don’t know, close to 90 percent, maybe. And then it started going down bit by bit. But I wanted to ask you this question here before we go: how have our fellow Americans been indoctrinated into being so defensive of billionaires, of not demanding a wealth tax or an erosive wealth tax? I mean, when you raise the issue of a wealth tax or taxing the rich more, a big segment of the population and I don’t mean just Republicans and not just rich, people are scared off by this. How did that happen and what can we do to change it? 

Anand Giridharadas [00:24:52] It’s such a good question. I will say I have a lot of opinions about a lot of things the way you do, and I would say this is one of the opinions that I have that I find most puzzling every time I air it. There is a seeming army of people making $35,000 a year, you know, who are like jumping in front of the intellectual bullet to protect the bodies of billionaires. I mean, there are people making $35,000 a year paying thousands of dollars a year in taxes who are jumping in front of the intellectual bullet to protect the right of people who make a billion dollars a year to pay less in taxes than they do. 

Anand Giridharadas [00:25:32] It is so bizarre and it’s very, very uniquely American, and I think it has a lot to do with this sense that a lot of Americans have that famous phrase, I forget if it’s Fitzgerald, someone like that, that Americans are like temporarily embarrassed millionaires. And I think a lot of Americans walk around with the notion that there are a couple of drinks away from being a billionaire and that you know that this invention that they keep telling their bar buddies about, like it’s just around the corner and next year they’re going to do it. 

Michael Moore [00:26:09] The American dream. 

Anand Giridharadas [00:26:09] And yeah, and they’re going to, you know, and they’re going to finally do right by Jane and they’re going to, you know, there’s this certain like huckster quality to our culture where we all think we’re there. And I will just say with all due respect, like if you’re listening to this, you’re never going to become a billionaire. And I’m not saying you’re never going to become a billionaire because you’re listening to Michael Moore’s podcast. I’m not suggesting causality, although there actually might be some causality there. It might radicalize you too much. But like, you’re not going to be a billionaire. I can assure you you’re not going to be a billionaire. I would almost guarantee that nobody listening to this will become a billionaire. You know. And I might be wrong statistically. Like maybe one of you at the most. And I can eat being wrong about one person out of the many thousands who are going to be listening to this. 

Anand Giridharadas [00:26:59] You’re not going to be a billionaire. So what you don’t need to do is sacrifice your lived reality right now. You don’t need to actually make your life harder right now. You don’t need to make yourself pay more taxes right now or have fewer programs right now to do the protective thing for this future version of yourself, right? What a lot of us are essentially trained to do in this country is to kind of hurt and crimp ourselves now in order to like, you know, pave the way for this future version of ourselves, where we’re just super rich and I’m here to tell you, like, you don’t have to worry about that person because that person is not real. Like, you’re never going to actually become that person. You’re pretty close to where you’ll end up right now for good or ill. And that sucks. That’s the declining mobility story we tell in this country. I mean, it’s lamentable. But it’s real. And so what you should actually do is fight for the interests of people exactly like you and other people, you know, and not fight for an imaginary rich person who you think you’re going to become and are not. 

Michael Moore [00:28:09] And what would you tell them specifically to do to do that fight to stand up and to fight this? What we’ve learned from this article, but we’ve known really for all of our lives, the inequity of this, I want to leave people with some kind of concrete thing that they can do, whether it’s something they do today or it’s something they get involved in and with other people. To do next month, next year, whatever it is, it’s just we can’t just keep talking about this. And I turn to you and I’m sorry to put this on you, but I’ve read your writings, I’m on your newsletter. I’ve listened to you. I saw you on Peacock last week. Listen, I’m sorry, but we need you to help lead the way here and to explain and encourage us to do certain things that need to be done. You’re welcome to reject this burden I’ve just put on you. But a nation turns its lonely eyes to you. 

Anand Giridharadas [00:29:16] That nation is going to be sorely disappointed. Yeah, I mean, I’ve thought about other ways of carrying that thing about, but I don’t think necessarily they’re the right things for me. I think what people can do is very loudly and clearly force the issue of a wealth tax under the agendas of the people who represent you. And I will tell you that there are some people who are dead against it. There are some people who are dead for it already. And I think there’s a bunch of people in play. I think there’s a bunch of people who whether it’s a wealth tax, specifically, whether it’s a much higher capital gains tax, whether it’s dealing with the estate tax, some of these things are in play. And I think the Democrats in particular are in an in play situation. I think there’s a lot of malleability right now. 

Anand Giridharadas [00:30:03] I think there’s a lot of different ways it can go. And I think if a lot of Democrats in office have the feeling that the old logic of people not wanting to go to class warfare and people not liking to demonize money, and if they generally, ambiently get the feeling that those laws of physics are still in place, then they’re not going to move on these issues. I think if they get the sense in the culture that people understand that you’re not demonizing people to insist on a fairer society, that you’re not engaging in, you know, Soviet like purges to talk about actually having fairness and equity in the society, they might be willing to propose things they haven’t been willing to propose. I think we need to get more people signed onto a wealth tax. 

Anand Giridharadas [00:30:51] I think if you look at what AOC did around the Green New Deal, right, where quickly it became this thing where all kinds of Democrats just felt they needed to endorse, even if they were quite centrist, even if they were going to back away from it later. And I think it would be great to have that kind of mobilizing effort around an idea like the wealth tax. And I think it’s worth just having the fullest, most outright version of the conversation, which is that these fortunes need to be made smaller and there is a level of concentration of wealth in this country that is simply inconsistent with one person, one vote. Inconsistent with we the people. Inconsistent with government by, for and, of the public. And if you like those things, if you value those things, you must stand against the plutocratic hijacking of the common good. 

Michael Moore [00:31:48] So there you go. I mean, all of us have to make our voices heard not only to your representatives, that’s very important, but also in your daily life, to your friends and neighbors and family and coworkers. You need to talk about it on social media. You need to post things. And I’m grateful for you for coming on my podcast today to talk about this while it’s in the news this week and all of us not let this subject drop. Let’s move forward. This is at the core of dealing with so much that’s wrong that we’ve got to fix. If we don’t fix the money, I think we’re doomed. So, Anand, many thanks to you and the work that you do. 

Anand Giridharadas [00:32:32] Thank you so much. And you better send me that hat. 

Michael Moore [00:32:35] You’re going to get your Michael Moore baseball cap. 

Anand Giridharadas [00:32:38] And is that an unrealized capital gain? 

Michael Moore [00:32:42] No, actually, when you see the condition of these hats, you will have a negative wealth problem. 

Anand Giridharadas [00:32:50] So as we know from the ProPublica article, that’s not a problem at all. 

Michael Moore [00:32:54] Actually, that’s not. That’s right, that’s one of the points that you… 

Anand Giridharadas [00:32:58] It’s a write off. 

Michael Moore [00:32:58] Yes, the year that Jeff Bezos claimed a negative income. He claimed the $4,000 tax credit for his kids. He claimed it and got it. 

Anand Giridharadas [00:33:10] Yes. This hat could end up saving me a lot of money. 

Michael Moore [00:33:13] It may actually save you some money. I know the IRS are regular listeners to this podcast.

Anand Giridharadas [00:33:22] As Kramer once said on Seinfeld. It’s a write off. You just write it right off. 

Michael Moore [00:33:26] It’s all a write off. 

Seinfeld clip [00:33:27] It’s a write off for them. How is it a write off? They just write it off. You don’t even know what a write off is? Do you? No, I don’t. But they do, and they’re the ones writing it off. 

[00:33:45] Anand, thank you so much. Thank you, everybody. Also, please sign up to Anand’s newsletter, The Ink. Read this newsletter each week. It’s a wonderful thing to have floating inside your head. All right, we’ll talk to you again when you come back for the fourth time. We’ll have to have a new award for you. 

Anand Giridharadas [00:34:07] Incredible. Always good to talk to you. 

Michael Moore [00:34:09] All right. Be well, my friend. Take care. 

Anand Giridharadas [00:34:10] You, too. 

Michael Moore [00:34:12] So don’t forget to check the link here on my podcast page to read the ProPublica article. And to sign up for Anand’s newsletter.